LocalAgentFinder is here to simplify

Matt reveals the value LocalAgentFinder adds to the day-to-day operations of agents, the four pillars of the platform and how they assist agents, as well as why they strive to simplify selection and amplify the possibility of you becoming the agent the vendor picks.

He also discusses why he has used this podcast as a way to listen to concerns of agents, for agents and agents only!

You will also find out:

• Why it’s a risk-free platform
• Why they get feedback from both vendors and agents
• How they differentiate from other platforms

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Full Transcript:

Announcer:    The Top 100 Agents are the best of the best, listing and selling more than any other agent in Australia. These are the practices, actions, and beliefs of the most successful agents in Australian real estate, raw, honest, and completely uncut.

Tim Neary:        How's everyone? It's Tim Neary here. I am editor of Real Estate Business and host of the Secrets of the Top 100 Agents podcast. Thanks for tuning in.

            We are very pleased to welcome on the show today, it's CEO of LocalAgentFinder, Matt McCann.

            Hello, Matt, and welcome to the show.

Matt McCann:          Hi, Tim. Nice to be here.

Tim Neary:    Fantastic. Now listen, we've seen more and more over the recent past that third party lead generating platforms, including your own at LocalAgentFinder, are entrenching themselves into the real estate landscape and appear unlikely to disappear. But, I think it's fair to say that there's been a fair amount of pushback from some agents in the industry to them.

            We thought it already. We'd run this initiative to put some questions out to the industry, and ask agents to send us their pressing concerns or their questions that they might have, and then we'd put them to you, and you can answer them.

            So we've done that, and we've had a flood of questions that have come in as we expected. We can't go through them all, but what we did is we sort of correlated them all, and we've put them into categories. We've come up with six questions, which I think sort of encapsulate most of the issues that agents are having.

            So let's get started, and I'll start at the first one, and say, the most basic one is, what value do you add?

Matt McCann:          Thanks, and it's a good question to start with. I think from where we sit today at LocalAgentFinder, our purpose for existing is empowering agent selection. It's what we get up in the morning to do. It kind of has two parts. The first part is a consumer part. We look at the consumer, in this case, it's largely a vendor, and we look at the stress that's involved in actually going about the process of selecting an agent.

            57% of our most recent research that we did with consumers said that was the most stressful part. Because once someone had picked an agent, they were in a position where they were then putting their trust in that agent. And so, the key part of the process for them was doing everything they could to pick a really well trusted, well recognised agent, and then doing that's quite hard. The data isn't readily available in a way that would show you, things like sales history or even pricing in fees. And so what we do is help people very simply, and very easily register their property with our service, and then give them that data, so they can make an informed decision about the nature of the agent that they want.

            And, yeah, when you think about it, the things you're really going to want to understand about an agent is you want to know what they've sold historically. You want to understand what's on the market now. You want to understand how long it's been on the market for. You want to understand what other people think of them. So you want independently gathered reviews. You want a fair picture of other people's experiences. You want to know how much they cost, so you want fees and marketing estimates. And the final piece, you want to see an agent in action. And so that's the most recent piece of our platform, which is actually agent video. Where we're seeing agents publish on the platform, them in action.

            So as a consumer of that data, you now can pick a ... You can see in real time what an agent would be like, and understand exactly how they might perform for you.

            On the other side of that, our purpose if you will. It's empowering agents. Selection in a way that allows agents to be well positioned in front of highly qualified vendors. There's two parts of that.

            One is how we allow you, or make you look as good as you really are on paper in front of a potential vendor. A lot of that comes from the way in which we position the data that you've got, and the way our algorithm will rank, and score you, and recommend you to consumers.

            But the other part of it is, this is risk free marketing for you. So you don't pay us, unless we provide you with a sale. We provide you with a rental or a property management contract. In a way, for an agent to be on the service there's no cashflow implication, there's no cost to be there. In fact, what we're doing is allowing you to get in front of highly qualified vendors. And increasingly, that's a really large pool of people. So that access to this large pool of people is critical in terms of the value that you create.

            You see, when you're a new channel like we are, but a very fast growing one, you see that the value being created of agents who are participating in the panel today is actually really large. We've got some agents who are doing 20% of their sales through our panel ... Sorry, our platform. And so when you see that, and you see the value that's being created in their business ... We have no doubt at all we're creating significant value for them. And I think part of the problem for some of the agents, perhaps who don't participate, is just understanding those things.

            There's a lot of myths or half truths out there about how the platform works, but it's very, very simple in that sense. It is risk free. You don't pay us, unless you get a sale. And ultimately what we're trying to do is connect you up with highly qualified vendors or property owners.

Tim Neary:    And for agents that are looking to sort of test you out and sort of dip their toes in the water, can you start of low and then build? You mentioned an agent that does 20% of their business through you. Can you start with a lower platform and then build up?

Matt McCann:          Well, it depends in a sense. It's how you appear in our proprietary algorithms.

            So our algorithm takes into account your market performance, and then it marries that market performance with local factors, a series of local factors. And so what you end up with is seeing how you will appear in the algorithm will determine how many leads you ultimately get. Following that, we then look at how you respond to those leads in terms of follow-up, and making sure that you're getting to them quickly and effectively.

            So once you're on the panel, if you're a good performer, you're going to get a lot of leads fairly quickly. The key part is making sure that your profile is up to date; we've got accurate information there. You're helping your customers continue to provide referrals into the platform ... reviews into the platform, not referrals. And then you're making sure that you've got your best foot forward in terms of the fees and commissions that you put up there as part of your profile.

Tim Neary:    Okay, so once you start, you're in it. There's no half measure because the better you perform, the more visible you're going to become.

Matt McCann:          What we find there is, is that once someone gets used to how the platform works, they understand the lead is an online lead. So they understand that they've got to react to the lead quickly. And they see the quality of the lead that's in front of them. We don't have any problem in terms of losing agents in that context. Actually what we see is they get more keen to get more volume.

Tim Neary:    Matt, the second question that came in was, the company is using this as an obvious, 'This' in that the podcast is an obvious PR stunt to ask agents to tell them how to progress in your own business.

            I think let's address that in two ways. First of all, what are your companies growth plans? And then address that, is this a PR stunt? True or false.

Matt McCann:          Well, I might address the PR stunt piece first.

            Look, one of the things about a startup business like ours, and our business is built around the idea of continuous improvement and feedback. So our purpose for working with you in this was to start to answer some of the information, or some of the misinformation perhaps that's out there in relation to our business, so it's helpful in that sense to be able to communicate with a large number of agents. But, more importantly, we listen to agents all the time. We're making several hundred phone calls to agents every month in terms of just feedback, listening to what they've got to say about the service. And we're making thousands of phone calls every month about potential vendors that they might want to connect with.

            So for us, listening is core to what we do. We do our biannual survey of our agents, where we survey them to get them to tell us how we're performing, and we have a number of feedback mechanisms. I think the purpose for this, really, was to hear those concerns that we don't otherwise hear in other places and be able to address them because we think it's important to be across the industry.

            In terms of what we've done with that listening. In the last, really six to twelve months, we've made some pretty interesting changes to our service. We've dramatically improved lead quality through qualification and checks. We've increased the size of our homeowner assistance team. We've put a cap on our fees that came from feedback. And we've made some pretty significant improvements to our agent portal. So the feedback's important, and we like to get it from wherever it comes.

            In terms of growth plans. For us there's really four key drivers of growth for us. The first one, it starts with agents. We want to continue to build the panel of agents that we have. The 5,000 plus agents from offices represent getting close to half of the sales in the market now. So we've got a lot of agents, and we've got a lot of offices represented in our recommendation set. Obviously, our objective is to get to the whole market. But, within that what we're seeing is we're able to work with both individual people at the principal level and at the group level to work really hard on understanding the nature of the lead we provide, and then ultimately how it should be responded to.

            There's a group we worked with in Melbourne last year, who at the beginning of the year their conversion rate was, let's call it 'X'. At the end of the year, it was two X. So they'd doubled conversion from leads that had come from the platform, just because they understood much better about the type of lead that we're dealing with. Because it's highly qualified, because we've, in most cases, had a conversation with the vendor, because the data that we've provided to them gives them a good background about the nature of the sale that's going to happen in terms of the property and the motivation, that an agent can pick that lead up and get onto the consumer really quickly and be sitting in their lounge room within days.

            And what we know is if you respond to a lead from the platform within an hour, so it's an hour, your likelihood of being the agent who lists that property is incredibly high, incredibly high.

Tim Neary:    That's a quick turnaround, one hour. There's not much of a window there.

Matt McCann:          The window here is one that happens because where the lead comes from.

            This isn't a traditional referral in the sense that an accountant might have said to you, "Hey, I know someone, and I've setup that conversation." That's one type of referral. As these are online, qualified ... And usually is we'll phone qualified individual who's ready to go because we've absolutely qualified that person's opportunity, their property, their motivators, and we understand a lot about them. So we give you every chance to be able to win that business. And one of the key parts is just response time, very, very important to get that right. So that's partnerships, if you will.

            In terms of products and services. So we continue to build out the platform. So video was the one I mentioned before. Agent videos gives you every chance, again, to be winning business. Because often times you as a potential vendor, you don't know the agent necessarily all that well until they walk through your door. Well actually, what if they got to know you online in a bit more depth, in a bit more breadth in terms of who you are and how you can operate? The vast majority of agents are impressive in what they do and how they operate, and so we see that in the videos. So these are one of the things where if you can keep your ... As we continue to improve the platform, if you can keep that profile up to date, and fresh, and current, it means that you'll do much better. But that's an important one for us.

            And then on the, if you will, the other end of the spectrum, it's then how we communicate to potential vendors. So for us, obviously we're brand lead in terms of the local agent funded brand, the investments we're making in building a proposition that consumers in the broader market understand will continue this year, and then strategic partnerships.

            And so, you've seen us very recently announce one with Commonwealth Bank of Australia where we'll be working very closely with them to really discover those people that sit within their customer base who are looking at transacting a property, and then giving them a proposition that confirms that, that's happen, and then obviously, then makes a recommendation through to agents themselves.

            So these partnerships drive the proposition into millions of people. I mean, the bank has over 16 million customers, of which 6.2 million access digital services. So this is a very large way of us being able to access in a very deep way of being able to access a huge number of customers as we grow. They're kind of our four growth drivers.

Tim Neary:    And also with the CBA partnership, you get that access to all of that information, all the feedback from vendors in terms of what they're looking for, so that helps you improve your platform at the same time.

Matt McCann:          Absolutely.

            I think with every partnership that we were doing, we're looking at a range. At every piece of feedback we get from agents, it's all about improving the platform. We've had great, huge strides in terms of the quality of the service that we offer over the last 12 to 18 months.

Tim Neary:    I get the sense, Matt, and correct me if I'm wrong, but at REB here when we run these stories and we talk about these things with LocalAgentFinder and similar ones ... And we get a lot of pushback from that. We get a lot of people coming back and making some comments on them. But we get the sense that not all of the agents in the market are reluctant and are pushing back against these new forces within the industry.

            Is there to as sense ... It sounds like from what you've explained in there, that there are a lot of agents that are actually cooperating with you and helping you improve the platform?

Matt McCann:          Absolutely, and to the extent that the feedback we get from the agents drives that. We use it all the time. I'd say we talk to a lot of agents out there. I think probably the thing that's some degree of a disconnect ... I mean, the vast majority of our business comes through property values, let's call it 'the list' and two, two and a half million dollars. So as a result, it's a different group. Often times, the agents who are commenting, aren't the ones using us. Whereas, a lot of the commentary we get comes from the agent who isn't necessarily at the high value, but doing high volume. And so, we take on their feedback all the time and really listen to them because that's the part of the market where we do incredibly well, and we really are solving a problem for consumers, vendors in how they go about finding an agent.

            So I think that's been part of the reason why some of the direct feedback's come from that end of the market. There's nothing wrong with that because I think that expressive view that's held by a number of agents that are concerned about something new. This is different, and the way in which the consumer is changing the nature of the industry because of how they go looking for an agent is ultimately always going to cause some bumps along the road. And look, to be honest, as a business we've done some things in the past that we wouldn't be doing, and we don't do today, that have caused us some headaches as we've gone. So it would be fair to say a lot of the history, and a lot of the learnings for me when I took the job, I was listening really hard for a long period of time to work out what we need to change, and we've made a lot of those changes.

            I think what we find in particular in the last six to nine months, that the feedback we're getting from agents is actually incredibly positive about those changes. That's everything from capping fees for high value properties, so we now have a cap that starts to kick in at the $800,000 property mark, which means, actually if you're selling something at two million dollars at a 1.8% commission rate, it's 8% is what you're paying away. Well, that's a hugely valuable proposition for you, and a high margin for an agent.

            So in the context of change, there's always going to be some noise. I think we probably find ourselves positioned now to really help agents do much, much better. And we would always say, "Your database is your first port of call for business," absolutely. And, "Maintain your database in the way you should, but let us help you with everything else." Because if we find, as well will in our doing, a very large number of vendors ... We had 71,000 properties registered on our platform in the last 12 months to 31, December. It's growing. We expect that to be over 100,000 this year. The consumers are there. They're there. Our job now is to make sure we deliver the service and put the right agent next to the right consumer.

Tim Neary:    Yeah, and bumps in the road are going to happen. I mean, this is new stuff. This is taking the industry in a new direction, so there's no sort of precedent for this stuff; it's pioneering work.

Matt McCann:          It is.

            I would say there's a lot of precedent in other product categories out there, and I think that's what has led consumers to this place. That they're now going, "I want all this information before I meet with an agent, or I sit down with an agent in my lounge room." And know that, I think the industry will ultimately use this as a ... It's an incredibly fast growing channel today, and over time will be a big part of what happens.

Tim Neary:    Question number three, and this is sort of the business end of the questions, is why should agents support LocalAgentFinder when all it does is drive our earnings down?

Matt McCann:          I think we probably take the view that the proposition with the question, we probably don't agree with, but we'll take it at face value.

            The biggest thing we find in how we think about agent earnings is to do really with the nature of prospecting activities. So our job in a sense is for you to say, "I never need to send another mail out because I know it's largely inefficient." It can work in some cases. In a lot of cases, a lot of that prospecting activity is cash you've got to put at the door before you've a sale, isn't risk free, and ultimately is going to lead to less and less transactions because consumers are in a digital world.

            So if you do a like for like on a lot of the, what I'll call, 'older world' or 'older style' prospecting activities outside of database work, we think that, that universe is getting smaller and smaller in terms of getting to customers, so it gets more and more expensive.

            What we know from the work we've been doing on looking at comparative cost of acquisition is a lot of agents don't value their time in that equation. And we would say to an agent, "You've got a very valuable asset in yourself, in managing your own portfolio sales. If you could spend absolutely no time worrying about those things, but just wake up in the morning and have a highly qualified vendor whose details have been confirmed, that you know you can get on the phone to, who you know you can sell to, that is probably the most efficient use of your time that you'll find. And there's no other qualification to go through other than basically your pitch to the vendor.

            And so, the ROI on that calculation is far out-pacing the ROI you would get on other, old style, schools of prospecting. And so, it's probably the first reason we think that the question of margin, accretion versus dilution, is probably slightly flawed. And what we do with our agents is really talk to them on the panel, and say to them on the panel through lots of our communication that if you respond quickly, you've got an up to date profile, all your data is accurate, and you get into the lounge room of the person that you're trying to obviously list that property as a result of following up quickly, your chance of listing is very high.

            Having said that, the flip side of the coin, and we hear this from agencies going, "Well hang on, if I'm comparing my fees and rates, doesn't that mean ultimately that commissions will go down?" And it is interesting because we've done a decent amount of research around this now. Commission is a gating item.

            And so what does that mean? That means that actually no one who's selling the house wants the cheapest person, because they're worried about quality. And no one wants the person who's so expensive they feel like they're being ripped off. What they do want is they want someone who's in the middle of both of those things, but whose got a really good sales record, a really good review record from customers who've been formally there, and they want to know they're going to be comfortable with them, and they can trust them to get the outcome because they're putting their most valuable asset in the hands of somebody else in most cases.

            What we find is giving the data to the, basically to the vendor means that they can go, "Hey, this commission rate sits well and truly in the range of what I think is acceptable. It's not excessively expensive, and it's not so cheap I'm concerned about the quality." So what I've got to do now is make sure I back myself to hold my quality in terms of my negotiation. I've got data points I can use now. I am one of the best sellers in the network, therefore actually a premium makes sense in the negotiation. So it's using the data points to hold that up, but we're not seeing wholesale discounts as a result of the platform in terms of commission rates. And in fact what we're seeing is more empowered owners, to be able to understand and believe that actually you're a really good performer and therefore a premium makes a lot of sense.

Tim Neary:    We talked to a lot of agents on this particular show, and all of them, all of the successful agents have a couple things in common. One of the things that they have in common is to focus on the dollar productive activities. This is what you were talking about a little earlier.

Matt McCann:          Highly dollar productive for us.

Tim Neary:    Question number four. How do you justify charging high fees when I would have received the call from the vendor anyway?

Matt McCann:          There's two parts to this. One of these we've touched on before, which is actually where the fee sits. We think the fee today, and particularly with the cap on it now ... So if you're selling an eight million dollar house, or an $800,000 house, the price is the same because the cap is in place, which was off the back of a lot of feedback from agents.

            But equally, looking at alternative means of prospecting means that actually we would call ourselves efficient. We'd also call ourselves risk free, in that you don't pay unless you've actually got a sale. So you've earned some money, so therefore that's the point at which you pay us.

            But the second part of that in terms of people walking through the door. There's probably two things to say there. One is they're online. They're not walking through the door anymore, and they're not really picking up the phone as much as they ever did before. What they're doing is they're researching you in an online universe, in a fair bit of detail before they'll come anywhere in to do that. They're using services like ours.

            So if you think, about 100,000 properties this year will be registered through our platform, and this is just us, so consumers are marching with their feet. They're already there. To the extent that you've got a conversational relationship with someone already existing, this is one of the big areas we've changed.

            So previously we would ask the question about whether there was a prior relationship or not with an agent, and it was a very specific question. We've made that extensively wider. What we've done is we've sort of said, "Along the road, we'll make sure that we're not getting in the road of an existing conversation." And so if you have got a prior relationship with an agent, we say, "That's great. You should keep talking to that agent, but we'll give you two or three others that you should be talking to alongside that agent." And what we know from our research is that once people understand the data that sits underneath that and who the agents are, in about 70% of cases they pick another agent than the one they had originally named, which is around about the same number that the McCrory Survey had for repeat business, so that probably makes sense in the context of the data. But our job is to make sure they're looking at the information, they're asking the right questions of the data before that happens.

            So if you say, "Well, if someone was going to walk through my door anyway," then your relationship is preserved, and you would go very hard at trying to make sure you make that listing. And we would say, "They've now got the data to confirm if you're the best agent, and that's going to be the case." Equally, a lot of them will change because they'll see the data and realise there's something else they were looking for. And so, that's part of the reason why we think that making those changes was really essential.

            Probably the final part. It means that when we put an opportunity in front of you, it shouldn't be someone who's sitting in your database. It shouldn't be someone ... And often if it is, you've got to ask yourself the question, "Why did they come searching?" And the answer to that is they're looking for the information.

Tim Neary:    And it talks to your point earlier about the evolution of the industry as well, and how more and more people are just finding their way around online, and doing less of the older world stuff, way of doing it.

            Fun two questions, and these really relate to, I guess, the opposition. I'm going to get to them. Are you trying to sell the LocalAgentFinder business, what with RealEstate.com and Domain coming into this space, and along with the pushback that your getting from agents in terms of sharing the commissions?

Matt McCann:          No, we're not trying to sell the business.

            I think probably the thing about RealEstate and Domain tip-toeing into the space, and that's kind of how we think about it at the moment, it's actually an endorsement of the model that we run today. We actually think it's where a good chunk of the growth in how we prospect for leads will come from, and I think they recognise that.

            I think it's good in a sense because what it means is that we'll get past this conversation and role and position in the industry, and what we'll start to do is things will normalise, and people will see that actually the nature of the service we're offering to consumers has real value to them, actually real value to agents as well.

            So we're excited, but we're keenly watching what they're doing in the way you would expect us to, and keeping an eye on sort of the productive elements that are there.

            I think probably for us, we would back ourselves, having learnt all of the things you learn over 10 years in business, in particular this one, to continue to be in front of everybody else when it comes to certainly the platforms or the product for the consumer, and then what it does for agents. And so that part is a known. We're also a different business than a classified business. There's a lot in that, that one needs to understand in terms of how you run it. And so with the comparison experience that sits within our business, it's kind of 30 years worth of isolate and compare the market experience that sits within our four walls. Off the back of that, we would back ourselves against anyone coming into the market today.

            In terms of exists, not on our time horizon. I probably would say that the most likely pathway we would take is something we talked about publicly last year as a listing, but really at the right time.

Tim Neary:    There was also some questions around, and I think you might have addressed it. RealEstate and Domain making LocalAgentFinder irrelevant. Is this true? How would you respond to that?

Matt McCann:          I think that there's going to be plenty of room in this part of the market. In that sense, we're not probably ... We don't think we become irrelevant. We think we stay very relevant. And part of that is because the product that we will build we think will be still far superior.

            I think one of the issues that perhaps Domain and RealEstate have to come to terms with will be that the agents themselves in terms of their feedback will have an impact on how they think about their core markets. And their core market obviously is the one around advertising and classifieds. So that's something with consideration taken into account, I guess.

            From our end, we're purely about building a position in the market, and a product in the market that solves that consumer and agent need of finding each other, so it's building that marketplace, and that's what we're about. I think that ultimately over time, and that sole focus will mean that we can stay ahead of competition from wherever it comes from.

Tim Neary:    Matt, I really appreciate your time this morning, and your forthright responses to the questions. We were just talking about it a little bit, and we were talking about how quickly this business is evolving. What have you got planned? What's in the pipeline?

            In fact, before we get to that, what's changed in the last six to nine months?

Matt McCann:          Quite a lot. I'd say probably, having been in the role now for sort of 18 months, we had a good hard look at what we were doing in the business and worked out what the right things were we needed to focus on. The biggest single thing was actually the upgrade. We've completely upgraded the platform. So in terms of data, in terms of experience, and certainly in terms of how we're interacting with consumers in terms of a brand position, that's all changed.

            From the agent point of view, we've made four big changes. The first of which is that we went out and listened really clearly about prior relationships. And so, what an agent would be seeing today to put in front of them is an opportunity they're otherwise not going to be talking to, so that's a really important change. It was one of the changes that we listened really hard on.

            As a result of that, and there'd been some noise in the market about issues we'd had with agents around that, well that's just about fallen off a cliff because we've sort of solved that problem. So lead quality improvements were big for us. We've gone through and we've made sure that information we're providing to the agents is checked. So it's, phone numbers are verified, details and ownership are verified. So things that mean that there's a really credible lead being put in front of an agent when they get that agent.

            We've tripled the size of our customer assistance team, so people talking to potential vendors to make sure that the motivators for the sale, the timing for the sale, and the expectations they have of agents are really clear, and we can pass that on to agents.

            Probably the third thing is the cap on pricing. Really understanding from the industry's perspective that at a high value it was prohibitive to participation, and we're now seeing agents come on to the platform as a result of that in really strong numbers.

            Finally, the agent portal, we've rebuilt entirely. So the insights that now come out of that portal are more than just, "Here's a lead." We're providing them the details. We look at the postcode in which you operate. We're looking at how many leads have gone through the platform, how many you've won, how many competitors have won. We're letting you know if a competitor or another person who's been recommended has looked at the lead that you are also currently looking at. We're starting to use that backend as a mini-CRM for our opportunity, so that agents can really understand the context around what we're providing them. And as we get more and more insights, and we're getting that out of the data all the time, we'll continue to build the portal so that it's a continually very valuable resource for an agent to be able to use every day when they're thinking about how they apply their time from a prospecting perspective.

Tim Neary:    And going forward, Matt, what's planned for LocalAgentFinder?

Matt McCann:          For the year coming up?

            So a fair bit more investment for us in the product itself. So in continuing to build out those products and features. Probably a decent sized focus coming up on the agent portal part. We want to make that mobile. We want to take that off the desktop. It is mobile today, but we'll make it much more intuitive from a mobile perspective, so our agents will see that shortly.

            And from a growth perspective at the consumer level, more investment in the brand. You'll see that coming. And obviously, more strategic partnerships. Obviously CBA is our first, and one we've worked very hard on for a long period of time to make sure we had that proposition right. Bet we see more of those in our future and therefore access to more and more potential vendors for agents.

Tim Neary:    Hey, Matt, I really appreciate your time. Just having a chat with you this morning, it's very apparent that you are evolving your platform, evolving the business to the needs of both the agents and the consumers to get the very best product out in there in the marketplace so that everyone benefits by it.

            I know that the answer to my next question is going to be any feedback coming from the industry, you're going to react to again as you have been doing. And so we'd really like to get you back on the show sometime in the future, just to do a sort of a follow up on today, and see how things are progressing, and where the industry is going, and where this part of the industry is leading.

Matt McCann:          I'd love to, anytime.

Tim Neary:    Fantastic. Nice one.

            Thanks, Matt.

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            Thanks again for tuning in. We'll see you next week. Goodbye.