Faced with tough markets, top sales agents are increasingly turning to trainers and business consultants to maximise their performance and keep them ahead of their competitors. Real Estate Business asks several consultants about what they offer, and how industry professionals can benefit
JOSH PHEGAN’S day begins at 5.15am. Sharp.
His first tasks centre on updating his blogs and conducting video chats. In between the day’s speaking engagements and one-on-one coaching sessions, he phones about 30 different agents. His last call is around 8pm.
“I make sure I’m well connected to my customers,” the real estate performance coach says.
In 2011, he held 172 real estate events and 600 one-on-one coaching sessions. In 2012, he will launch in New Zealand and the United States.
Mr Phegan, who became an agent in 2002 in his hometown of Albury-Wodonga, NSW, started his current training business in 2007. He deals with some of the country’s top agents and agencies, with more than 60 per cent of his personal coaching clients generating more than $600,000 in gross fees per annum.
They’re spread across the country, meaning he travels around 40 weeks of the year.
So, why are the services offered by Mr Phegan and other real estate trainers and business consultants like him, becoming increasingly popular?
In a word, it’s results.
“We now work with some of Australia’s and New Zealand’s top agents and I’m incredibly proud to watch that partnership well and truly pay off,” Mr Phegan says. “We’ve helped them double their success, which is no mean feat in this tough climate.”
Julie Ryan, a professional real estate marketing and communications consultant, is also no stranger to getting results – or to early starts. She’s worked out that some of the best attended programs she has run are held as a breakfast session, usually starting at 7.30am.
Ms Ryan, who has been a speaker and consultant to the property industry since 2000, provides her services to major clients that include the Real Estate Institutes of every state in Australia and New Zealand; RE/MAX International; Colliers International; Professionals; Ray White; First National Real Estate; realestate.com.au; Complete Property Training; and West Coast Property Training.
She has also worked as mentor and coach to many of the highest performing real estate agents in Australia, New Zealand and the United States – as well as having operated as a principal and salesperson herself.
According to Ms Ryan, the very best agents are now looking for customised training. “Their purpose is to save time and make the training dollar work harder,” she says.
MOTIVATION
Real estate professionals enlist the help of a business and/or performance consultant for different reasons.
Michael Keenan, founder and CEO of NSW based Real Coach, a compliance and best practice training organisation, says the real estate industry needs premium level training. The company, which has operated since 2003, provides a variety of training services, from the entry level Certificate of Registration Course through to licensing, practical CPD training and agency audits.
“Our range of training and compliance products assists clients at every stage of their real estate career,” he says. “Compliance and best practice have been our focus in recent months – with so many changes in legislation we believe it is paramount that agencies are aware of these changes and are practising them on a daily basis.”
According to Mr Phegan, industry professionals typically seek him out because they are not happy with where they are at and want an aggressive turnaround; they are already going well and want to grow into new markets; they need to turn around the culture of their business; they are in financial trouble and need results instantly; and/or they are in the start-up phase and want to grow to profit as soon as possible.
Most recently, principals have been seeking help with achieving business growth in the current challenging market conditions.
“Principals from across Australia and New Zealand are turning to business specialists to maximise bottom line profit, to drive performance standards into their organisations and radically reshape archaic business models,” he says.
Ms Ryan adds that an increasing number of principals are keen to build and refresh their skills, most with a view to securing a competitive advantage in their marketplace.
In terms of subject matter, Mr Phegan says a popular focus for his clients is listing presentation reviews – “where sales representatives present directly to me and the business receives an overall score sheet for areas of weakness”.
His internal training programs work at two levels. For salespeople, training focuses on prospecting, listing, vendor work, buyer work, productivity and performance, growing teams, auctions and the sales process.
At the management and business owners’ level, his focus is on business growth models, recruitment, retention, performance management, branding, technology, scaleable learning platforms, innovation and development.
USING CONSULTANTS
Sean Green, operations manager at Raine & Horne, says his group uses external business consultants and trainers for specific tasks within the organisation. These include development programs for skills such as vendor management, prospecting, sales and property management activities.
External trainers and consultants are also employed for business-focused topics, he adds, where principals look to improve their skills as a small business owner. One recent program involved a focus on cash flow forecasting – which can be a tricky topic for principals attempting to understand and manage the movement of money into their coffers.
It’s for this reason that specialists such as accountants who deal specifically with real estate businesses are a popular type of trainer, he says.
“Principals like to deal with an expert in this area [of business management],” he says.
Legislation, business planning, succession planning, HR, industrial relations and occupational health and safety are other topics that tend to get covered, he adds.
According to Mr Green, the trainer must have real estate industry experience to be effective.
That’s not to say the group doesn’t have internal training – but this tends to be focused on developing the fundamentals of working within Raine & Horne, from knowing how to use their systems through to learning about what the group offers in terms of services and products.
One initiative the group is especially proud of involves regular ‘telechats’ between up to 10 principals from across the network. “We do this to share a lot of knowledge from around the network,” he says, although they keep participant numbers at 10 in order to maximise interaction.
TRAINING STYLE
According to Ms Ryan, training focused on improving performance covers a broad scope, from conventions, group training and in-office training to personal training.
While each has its place, conventions are what she refers to as “edutainment – education designed to quickly spread great ideas among people in an entertaining atmosphere likely to inspire action”.
“Of course, we all know that inspiration fades faster than we would like it to and follow-up discussion, training or coaching is needed to gain implementation,” Ms Ryan continues.
Qualified and experienced trainers usually conduct a ‘training needs analysis’, which simply looks at what training is going to be the most effective.
“This can be done at an individual level and right through to large corporations,” she says.
“As an example, during an analysis for a large international commercial organisation we found not only the ideal topics, we also obtained valuable insights into how to deliver the training to improve its effectiveness.
“We found that these participants did not want full day training programs with traditional hours. Instead, we designed programs around the times they told us to use, with a breakfast session from 7.30 to 10.30 then an afternoon session from 2.30 to 5.30. The middle of the day was left available for the most important parts of their usual work. This change resulted in significantly higher attendances and participation in the sessions,” Ms Ryan says.
Training combined with consultancy is also popular with her clients.
“It is rare for me to travel and spend a whole day delivering content anymore,” she says. “We are much more likely to spend a half day consulting on marketing and management-related issues, then use the group training session to share with the team the ideas and strategies developed with the owner.”
Skype is a popular delivery method, she adds: “It has been an outstanding tool for coaching and consulting. Skype does not eliminate the need for some in-person contact but it means that consultation, follow-up and problem solving are easy and cost-effective.
“The low cost of Skype is not its only advantage, nor the ability to see each other,” she continues, “but the ability to share screens is exceptionally valuable. Rather than attempting to describe situations, by being able to quickly and easily show each other what is on your screen, clear accurate and timely advice is on demand.
“The other obvious advantage is that distance becomes irrelevant, other than its impact on time zones.”
Principals increasingly seek customised content and flexible delivery when weighing up their training options, according to Mr Phegan.
“There has been a growing trend to engage in smaller group training sessions with masterminds to allow assessable learning components for internal benchmarking against core competencies,” he says.
Mr Keenan, who offers in-house training to individuals and to agencies of all sizes as well as to corporate clients, has adapted his style to suit each one. “We deliver our services using a variety of methods as we believe that the best way for one agent to learn may not be the best for another,” he says.
“We endeavour to provide the best possible training needs and solutions in a style that best suits the client’s needs.”
The Real Coach audit service is a good example.
“Our on-site compliance audit is an invaluable service for any real estate agency that wants to ensure its practices comply with current standards,” he says. “An experienced Real Coach auditor highlights areas of concern and provides recommendations, tools and resources to address these issues.
“The on-site audit is followed by a detailed report that the principal can then use to ensure his agency continues to follow best practice standards. Guidelines and checklists are provided so these practices can be applied to day-to-day operations.”
The company’s CPD training can be delivered via a face-to-face course, video CD-ROM, online learning or in-house training, he adds.
“In-house training could be the option for [an] agency, saving time and money by having one of our experienced real estate professionals deliver an informative and motivating training session – CPD, Certificate of Registration (four-day program) and accelerated licensing (six-day program) can be completed in house,” Mr Keenan says.
DANGER ZONE
Agents and principals – guided or not – are sometimes guilty of taking their eyes off the training ball when times are good. Mr Phegan actually gets concerned when one of his agents has had a good month.
“Most are too busy relishing the success they’re having that they’re neglecting to prospect for new deals for the next month,” he says.
“They usually celebrate when they get to the peak, then die on the way down because they think the hard work is over and stop using their effort and focus to its full potential.”
This is where CPD requirements can help, Mr Keenan says.
“Each year we strive to develop a CPD course that is relevant, informative and invaluable for the workplace,” he explains. “Many within the industry believe it to be time wasting, but we aim to keep our clients up to date with legislation and best practice changes or even to refresh or refine their skills.”
Mr Green agrees that it’s critical that principals attend training events and put good ideas into practice.
“We put a lot of reporting around this training we offer,” he says. For example, an important focus for the group is building sales representative numbers, something the system tracks.
This means principals who attend recruitment and/or HR-focused training will be expected to show how they’re contributing to this growth following training.
Even the best people want to be held accountable for their performance, and this is one thing an external trainer can provide, says Mr Green.
“We all have the desire; it’s just a lot easier [to implement change] when someone is driving you. When people aren’t feeling so good, it just helps to have someone gee them up,” he says.
OPEN MINDED AND FEARLESS
Tony Hopper, principal at Raine & Horne Mollymook/Milton in NSW, says he has always been open minded about taking on new ideas. But he admits it’s tough being told that what you’re doing isn’t right – which is what he and his two fellow principals encountered when they brought in an external business consultant.
“It’s pretty confronting,” he says. “You think you’re pretty clever, but not after they [the consultants] have a hard look at things. You realise that you’re not as good as you think you are.”
Mr Hopper, who has been in the industry in both property management and sales roles for 30 years, says getting in a consultant helped provide a much needed external perspective.
Being challenged on what you take for granted is key, and the consultant used had team members rethinking processes and strategies they had become accustomed to using day in, day out.
In the case of Raine & Horne Mollymook/Milton, they learned more about identifying and separating their profit and revenue centres, enabling them to identify how each part of the business was performing. Better processes and protocols were also implemented.
The process has proven so successful that for the first time in 20 years, the business isn’t running an overdraft.
A healthy dose of fearlessness is also helpful, according to John Percudani, director of Perth-based Realmark. After trying various business models, Mr Percudani and his wife Anita developed a new business approach that has taken five years and countless tough business decisions to complete.
“As leaders, our belief is that we have to create discomfort in our business,” he says. “People don’t like change, real estate agents don’t like change...but we know we have to take people out of their comfort zone, and we have to drive them with fearless determination until it reaches the tipping point, has traction, then has a life of its own.”
Anthony Toop, managing director of Adelaide-based Toop&Toop, prides himself on being a fearless leader. Mr Toop, whose company is in the Real Estate Institute of Australia (REIA) Hall of Fame, says training is absolutely critical to the industry.
In a market that is down almost 40 per cent in terms of volumes and transaction numbers, competition has intensified and the need for performance-related training is even more important than ever, he adds.
Mr Toop has taken a more radical approach of late to help inspire his team’s performance. This includes the unusual step of having one of his competitors come in to train his staff on how to garner vendor paid advertising (VPA) – a win for both parties.
He has also brought in some top-level car dealership salespeople – including one veteran who has gone through numerous tough periods – just to get a better idea of how his team should operate in the current market.
Mr Phegan echoes the need for leaders to be fearless. “The feeling is incredible when you push yourself more than you thought you could have,” he posted in a recent blog.
“Great leaders believe you can do more than you do, and extract the best from you. The problem is that we play it safe. Far too safe. Our mind has little protection mechanisms in place, telling us what our limits are each day.”
GETTING RESULTS
Results matter of course, and that’s how Mr Phegan, Ms Ryan and Mr Keenan like to be judged.
Ms Ryan acknowledges that principals expect value for money, and she’s seeing higher expectations for a return on investment. But that’s not always their core goal.
“All of my clients have had specific objectives in mind when they have asked for my involvement,” she says. “Those objectives are sometimes measured in dollars but more frequently they are looking for a position within an organisation (e.g. top office) or market share.
“An example of my work involves coaching clients where individuals have achieved notable performances, such as Della Randall of RE/MAX who went from number 400 to number 10 in the world in the year she worked with me.”
Mr Phegan says he measures success by profit gain, productivity and performance and market share. “We train for profit, not just compliance,” he says.
Mr Keenan sees numerous clients coming back for more and believes this shows his programs are working. “Our client base has gone from strength to strength over the years,” he says.
Peak performance
Faced with tough markets, top sales agents are increasingly turning to trainers and business consultants to maximise their performance and keep them ahead of their competitors. Real Estate Business asks several consultants about what they offer, and how industry professionals can benefit
Josh Phegan’s day begins at 5.15am. Sharp.
His first tasks centre on updating his blogs and conducting video chats. In between the day’s speaking engagements and one-on-one coaching sessions, he phones about 30 different agents. His last call is around 8pm.
“I make sure I’m well connected to my customers,” the real estate performance coach says.
In 2011, he held 172 real estate events and 600 one-on-one coaching sessions. In 2012, he will launch in New Zealand and the United States.
Mr Phegan, who became an agent in 2002 in his hometown of Albury-Wodonga, NSW, started his current training business in 2007. He deals with some of the country’s top agents and agencies, with more than 60 per cent of his personal coaching clients generating more than $600,000 in gross fees per annum.
They’re spread across the country, meaning he travels around 40 weeks of the year.
So, why are the services offered by Mr Phegan and other real estate trainers and business consultants like him, becoming increasingly popular?
In a word, it’s results.
“We now work with some of Australia’s and New Zealand’s top agents and I’m incredibly proud to watch that partnership well and truly pay off,” Mr Phegan says. “We’ve helped them double their success, which is no mean feat in this tough climate.”
Julie Ryan, a professional real estate marketing and communications consultant, is also no stranger to getting results – or to early starts. She’s worked out that some of the best attended programs she has run are held as a breakfast session, usually starting at 7.30am.
Ms Ryan, who has been a speaker and consultant to the property industry since 2000, provides her services to major clients that include the Real Estate Institutes of every state in Australia and New Zealand; RE/MAX International; Colliers International; Professionals; Ray White; First National Real Estate; realestate.com.au; Complete Property Training; and West Coast Property Training.
She has also worked as mentor and coach to many of the highest performing real estate agents in Australia, New Zealand and the United States – as well as having operated as a principal and salesperson herself.
According to Ms Ryan, the very best agents are now looking for customised training. “Their purpose is to save time and make the training dollar work harder,” she says.
Motivation
Real estate professionals enlist the help of a business and/or performance consultant for different reasons.
Michael Keenan, founder and CEO of NSW‑based Real Coach, a compliance and best practice training organisation, says the real estate industry needs premium level training. The company, which has operated since 2003, provides a variety of training services, from the entry level Certificate of Registration Course through to licensing, practical CPD training and agency audits.
“Our range of training and compliance products assists clients at every stage of their real estate career,” he says. “Compliance and best practice have been our focus in recent months – with so many changes in legislation we believe it is paramount that agencies are aware of these changes and are practising them on a daily basis.”
According to Mr Phegan, industry professionals typically seek him out because they are not happy with where they are at and want an aggressive turnaround; they are already going well and want to grow into new markets; they need to turn around the culture of their business; they are in financial trouble and need results instantly; and/or they are in the start-up phase and want to grow to profit as soon as possible.
Most recently, principals have been seeking help with achieving business growth in the current challenging market conditions.
“Principals from across Australia and New Zealand are turning to business specialists to maximise bottom line profit, to drive performance standards into their organisations and radically reshape archaic business models,” he says.
Ms Ryan adds that an increasing number of principals are keen to build and refresh their skills, most with a view to securing a competitive advantage in their marketplace.
In terms of subject matter, Mr Phegan says a popular focus for his clients is listing presentation reviews – “where sales representatives present directly to me and the business receives an overall score sheet for areas of weakness”.
His internal training programs work at two levels. For salespeople, training focuses on prospecting, listing, vendor work, buyer work, productivity and performance, growing teams, auctions and the sales process.
At the management and business owners’ level, his focus is on business growth models, recruitment, retention, performance management, branding, technology, scaleable learning platforms, innovation and development.
Using consultants
Sean Green, operations manager at Raine & Horne, says his group uses external business consultants and trainers for specific tasks within the organisation. These include development programs for skills such as vendor management, prospecting, sales and property management activities.
External trainers and consultants are also employed for business-focused topics, he adds, where principals look to improve their skills as a small business owner. One recent program involved a focus on cash flow forecasting – which can be a tricky topic for principals attempting to understand and manage the movement of money into their coffers.
It’s for this reason that specialists such as accountants who deal specifically with real estate businesses are a popular type of trainer, he says.
“Principals like to deal with an expert in this area [of business management],” he says.
Legislation, business planning, succession planning, HR, industrial relations and occupational health and safety are other topics that tend to get covered, he adds.
According to Mr Green, the trainer must have real estate industry experience to be effective.
That’s not to say the group doesn’t have internal training – but this tends to be focused on developing the fundamentals of working within Raine & Horne, from knowing how to use their systems through to learning about what the group offers in terms of services and products.
One initiative the group is especially proud of involves regular ‘telechats’ between up to 10 principals from across the network. “We do this to share a lot of knowledge from around the network,” he says, although they keep participant numbers at 10 in order to maximise interaction.
Training style
According to Ms Ryan, training focused on improving performance covers a broad scope, from conventions, group training and in-office training to personal training.
While each has its place, conventions are what she refers to as “edutainment – education designed to quickly spread great ideas among people in an entertaining atmosphere likely to inspire action”.
“Of course, we all know that inspiration fades faster than we would like it to and follow-up discussion, training or coaching is needed to gain implementation,” Ms Ryan continues.
Qualified and experienced trainers usually conduct a ‘training needs analysis’, which simply looks at what training is going to be the most effective.
“This can be done at an individual level and right through to large corporations,” she says.
“As an example, during an analysis for a large international commercial organisation we found not only the ideal topics, we also obtained valuable insights into how to deliver the training to improve its effectiveness.
“We found that these participants did not want full day training programs with traditional hours. Instead, we designed programs around the times they told us to use, with a breakfast session from 7.30 to 10.30 then an afternoon session from 2.30 to 5.30. The middle of the day was left available for the most important parts of their usual work. This change resulted in significantly higher attendances and participation in the sessions,” Ms Ryan says.
Training combined with consultancy is also popular with her clients.
“It is rare for me to travel and spend a whole day delivering content anymore,” she says. “We are much more likely to spend a half day consulting on marketing and management-related issues, then use the group training session to share with the team the ideas and strategies developed with the owner.”
Skype is a popular delivery method, she adds: “It has been an outstanding tool for coaching and consulting. Skype does not eliminate the need for some in-person contact but it means that consultation, follow-up and problem solving are easy and cost-effective.
“The low cost of Skype is not its only advantage, nor the ability to see each other,” she continues, “but the ability to share screens is exceptionally valuable. Rather than attempting to describe situations, by being able to quickly and easily show each other what is on your screen, clear accurate and timely advice is on demand.
“The other obvious advantage is that distance becomes irrelevant, other than its impact on time zones.”
Principals increasingly seek customised content and flexible delivery when weighing up their training options, according to Mr Phegan.
“There has been a growing trend to engage in smaller group training sessions with masterminds to allow assessable learning components for internal benchmarking against core competencies,” he says.
Mr Keenan, who offers in-house training to individuals and to agencies of all sizes as well as to corporate clients, has adapted his style to suit each one. “We deliver our services using a variety of methods as we believe that the best way for one agent to learn may not be the best for another,” he says.
“We endeavour to provide the best possible training needs and solutions in a style that best suits the client’s needs.”
The Real Coach audit service is a good example.
“Our on-site compliance audit is an invaluable service for any real estate agency that wants to ensure its practices comply with current standards,” he says. “An experienced Real Coach auditor highlights areas of concern and provides recommendations, tools and resources to address these issues.
“The on-site audit is followed by a detailed report that the principal can then use to ensure his agency continues to follow best practice standards. Guidelines and checklists are provided so these practices can be applied to day-to-day operations.”
The company’s CPD training can be delivered via a face-to-face course, video CD-ROM, online learning or in-house training, he adds.
“In-house training could be the option for [an] agency, saving time and money by having one of our experienced real estate professionals deliver an informative and motivating training session – CPD, Certificate of Registration (four-day program) and accelerated licensing (six-day program) can be completed in house,” Mr Keenan says.
Danger zone
Agents and principals – guided or not – are sometimes guilty of taking their eyes off the training ball when times are good. Mr Phegan actually gets concerned when one of his agents has had a good month.
“Most are too busy relishing the success they’re having that they’re neglecting to prospect for new deals for the next month,” he says.
“They usually celebrate when they get to the peak, then die on the way down because they think the hard work is over and stop using their effort and focus to its full potential.”
This is where CPD requirements can help, Mr Keenan says.
“Each year we strive to develop a CPD course that is relevant, informative and invaluable for the workplace,” he explains. “Many within the industry believe it to be time wasting, but we aim to keep our clients up to date with legislation and best practice changes or even to refresh or refine their skills.”
Mr Green agrees that it’s critical that principals attend training events and put good ideas into practice.
“We put a lot of reporting around this training we offer,” he says. For example, an important focus for the group is building sales representative numbers, something the system tracks.
This means principals who attend recruitment and/or HR-focused training will be expected to show how they’re contributing to this growth following training.
Even the best people want to be held accountable for their performance, and this is one thing an external trainer can provide, says Mr Green.
“We all have the desire; it’s just a lot easier [to implement change] when someone is driving you. When people aren’t feeling so good, it just helps to have someone gee them up,” he says.
Open minded and fearless
Tony Hopper, principal at Raine & Horne Mollymook/Milton in NSW, says he has always been open minded about taking on new ideas. But he admits it’s tough being told that what you’re doing isn’t right – which is what he and his two fellow principals encountered when they brought in an external business consultant.
“It’s pretty confronting,” he says. “You think you’re pretty clever, but not after they [the consultants] have a hard look at things. You realise that you’re not as good as you think you are.”
Mr Hopper, who has been in the industry in both property management and sales roles for 30 years, says getting in a consultant helped provide a much needed external perspective.
Being challenged on what you take for granted is key, and the consultant used had team members rethinking processes and strategies they had become accustomed to using day in, day out.
In the case of Raine & Horne Mollymook/Milton, they learned more about identifying and separating their profit and revenue centres, enabling them to identify how each part of the business was performing. Better processes and protocols were also implemented.
The process has proven so successful that for the first time in 20 years, the business isn’t running an overdraft.
A healthy dose of fearlessness is also helpful, according to John Percudani, director of Perth-based Realmark. After trying various business models, Mr Percudani and his wife Anita developed a new business approach that has taken five years and countless tough business decisions to complete.
“As leaders, our belief is that we have to create discomfort in our business,” he says. “People don’t like change, real estate agents don’t like change...but we know we have to take people out of their comfort zone, and we have to drive them with fearless determination until it reaches the tipping point, has traction, then has a life of its own.”
Anthony Toop, managing director of Adelaide-based Toop&Toop, prides himself on being a fearless leader. Mr Toop, whose company is in the Real Estate Institute of Australia (REIA) Hall of Fame, says training is absolutely critical to the industry.
In a market that is down almost 40 per cent in terms of volumes and transaction numbers, competition has intensified and the need for performance-related training is even more important than ever, he adds.
Mr Toop has taken a more radical approach of late to help inspire his team’s performance. This includes the unusual step of having one of his competitors come in to train his staff on how to garner vendor paid advertising (VPA) – a win for both parties.
He has also brought in some top-level car dealership salespeople – including one veteran who has gone through numerous tough periods – just to get a better idea of how his team should operate in the current market.
Mr Phegan echoes the need for leaders to be fearless. “The feeling is incredible when you push yourself more than you thought you could have,” he posted in a recent blog.
“Great leaders believe you can do more than you do, and extract the best from you. The problem is that we play it safe. Far too safe. Our mind has little protection mechanisms in place, telling us what our limits are each day.”
Getting results
Results matter of course, and that’s how Mr Phegan, Ms Ryan and Mr Keenan like to be judged.
Ms Ryan acknowledges that principals expect value for money, and she’s seeing higher expectations for a return on investment. But that’s not always their core goal.
“All of my clients have had specific objectives in mind when they have asked for my involvement,” she says. “Those objectives are sometimes measured in dollars but more frequently they are looking for a position within an organisation (e.g. top office) or market share.
“An example of my work involves coaching clients where individuals have achieved notable performances, such as Della Randall of RE/MAX who went from number 400 to number 10 in the world in the year she worked with me.”
Mr Phegan says he measures success by profit gain, productivity and performance and market share. “We train for profit, not just compliance,” he says.
Mr Keenan sees numerous clients coming back for more and believes this shows his programs are working. “Our client base has gone from strength to strength over the years,” he says.
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